The Death of Arcades
Hosts discuss the rise of arcades and all the old school games: Space invaders, Asteroids, Pac Man, Donkey Kong, Frogger, and many more! Enjoy this blast from the past while you learn how and why home gaming eliminated arcades.
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Hey ! Haha ha... be nice!
Wow. These guys have no idea what there talking about! Arcade were about the social package. THERE WERE GIRLS THERE! There were high scores. Like anything, it's different when you grow up in the time. People stopped playing video games because of THE PRICE. A quarter for a game, no problem, a dollar, forget about it and you have no idea how to get the cool moves. Check out King of Kong and say a arcade suck. Better yet, stop criticizing Gen X's toys, we brought the video game, computer, internet and all the other cool things that these 19 years old enjoy.
We're actually all in our 30's, but thanks for the compliment. Gotta love those soft lenses....
still cant watch continously
HOLASS, QUISIERA SABER COMO PUEDO BAJAR EL VIDEO QUE ESTA MUY BUENO SIN TENER LA NECESIDAD DE PEGARLO
Arcades could still be resseurected, if they could revive them like they did with cinema when home video almost killed it. by giving the user an expierence they can't have at home. (though you could say thats why "gimicky" arcade games like DDR do well) But the possibility of releasing games in arcades before home could be viable.
But one thing that arcades should have embrased was online arcade games, esepcially when broadband was too expensive for most people. Atari had a quick stab at it with dial up games, which was stupid, and Sega did pretty well with online Virtua fighter games in Japan. (also Half-Life 2 arcade) but in whole a missed opportunity.
Then again, maybe thats what LAN/Cyber Cafe's became.
Guru Larry - ScrewAttack.com
& Presenter on the European video game channel XLEAGUE.TV
Great points. We actually talk about this in an upcoming episode which revisits the arcade. Look for it in a couple weeks.
Awesome, defiently look forward to it, I'm really enjoying the series.
Thanks. I just finished the new episode on arcades today, so it should be up soon. There's another one that scheduled to go up first, and then it'll be next.
Im sorry, lol but this video has really given me a tearjerker moment! So Geek Squad tells me, a classic golden age gamer that arcades had to die to bring me such wonderful artistic treasures like world of warcraft?
First of all the actors depicted in this video weren't either born when the golden age occured, or were not old enough to enjoy their true elegence and simplicity. So frankly without an understudy of the "old school" their load of hooey is simply a disrespect to the talent of Nolan Bushnell, Steve Kitchen, and other CLASSIC legends!!
Please, the death of arcades? the only reason classic arcades died in America was because of the need for EYE CANDY, visual and aural stimulation taking over the simplicity of the past. I daresay most of the young have no appreciation for the classics as this video demonstrates, fancy studios replacing good old fasioned computer programming by dedicated individuals, simple joysticks replaced by complex monstrosities of control that would make a Boeing 777 cockpit look inadequate.
This is the future people? this is what classic arcades died for? To insure the younger generation locks itself in a graphic induced cage not even to practice simple socializing outside of their homes? I used to LOVE going to the arcades not just to play games, but to also have fun with something that resembles a real human being!! Wow what a concept huh? Cant have that now in the "World of Warcraft", oh no, pay your 50 bucks, your online fee and your internet subscription and you can be a color soaked zombie as well who never sees for the most part another human being.
At least the classic arcades provided something no home console could match today, it was called appeal!!! It wasnt all sleezy dives, and in deference to some on this silly and pointless video, it was nice being able to let your parents shop and you kept pumping the old game at the grocery store with quarters!!!
I guess this is what you can expect from a rapidly deteriorating society who craves mindless drecks over true honest gaming, but then again I guess I am a bit biased, I do own Pac Man, Missile Command, Gorf, and several other classic arcade machines, and as long as people like me buy and restore these treasures, at least if the arcades die, their legacy will live on in the machines we labor to restore!!!
Just an opinion from a keeper of the last flickers of the "Golden Age" sorry you couldn't buy us with your expensive eye candy and miserable gameplay. But please, get your facts straight! Numbers, dates, they are irrelevant in the face of an industry who frakly, caters to no one but the mindless legions of fanatical nerds who will tell you their graphics chip can process a zillion colors a second or can make Bart Simpson fart 3 times faster than last years model. Do you really care about statistics that much? or do you feel big numbers will lead credibility to your storyline? It doesnt
Thanks for the rant!!
Whoa- you are one big fan of old school gaming! Well, in a couple episodes look for a new episode that covers the arcade more in depth and discusses its resurgence. It's episode 13, and it's coming in a few weeks- hopefully you'll feel a good connection there. By the way, eveyone in this video played all the classic arcade games in their time (except one who caught the 2nd wave a few years later). But I'll pass on to everyone (and the makeup girl) how young people think they look on camera. Cheers!
Well, I was going to let this debate die, but I wanted to chime in to correct two incorrect rebuttal points that are commonly circulated in various threads online by my arcade loving friends. (1) myth#1: "the arcade industry took in 6 billion in 2006". Actually, the domestic US gross for all arcade video games was 2.2 billion. Adjusted for a 267% US inflation index, that means arcades today pull roughy 5% of the dometic US gross they did in their 80's heyday. The 6 billion number continues to be circulated, but is incorrect as it is the gross of ALL vending (fooseball, cigarette machines, etc.) and not simply video games., which of course, is what the show is about. Good people can agrue all over the use of the word "death" and how appropiate it is to use in this context, but the decline is, in fact, quite severe. Which brings us to point #2: (2) "Arcades still exist". Well, yes, arcades still do exits in the US. But, in the 80' heydey, there were 24,000 dedicated arcades (not even counting FECs). There are roughly 4,000 now- roughly 16% of their former number. Again, the word "death" may be too strong for some, but the decline is quite large. Also, check out BMIgaming or playmeter online to see the continuing decline in both units and grosses year after year. In fact, In the last years alone (2004-2006), the grosses halved for dedicated video arcade games. Twin Galaxies on their website writes well on this subject, lamenting the huge absence of arcades as an everyday American fixture and mentioning that less than 1% of the arcades listed in Twin Galaxies’ original database are still in existence. Thanks for reading, and thanks for keeping the discussion civil. - jeremiah black, director, Play Value.
Well jgusw3, every arcade forum and fan site has been full of corrections and contradictions - I am sure your not that interested to wade through so why not go to this excellent collection of comments - http://arcadeheroes.com/2007/08/17/death-of-the-arcade-being-greatly-exaggerated/
To those people who say, "this video is incorrect about the facts", how about you tell us what the facts are? Where did you get your info? Educated me on the topic.
Interesting theory. I recall going to a local video arcade in the mid to late 90s, and it being just as packed as the arcades of the 80s. I think the greatest fun then was not playing against strangers, but going to the aracde and being able to play a game like Daytona USA against 6 or 7 of your friends. Even today it would be hard to recreate a gaming experience like that at home.
i tried to read all these comments, but a little too much. i think that what the show is trying to describe and explain is what happened to arcades when they were really big. you just don't find big arcades anymore - there's bowling, or a restaurant, pools halls attached. what is explained is the death of an economic phenomena and i believe the critics here are focusing too literally on the title, 'death of the arcades'
again - haven't been in what i think is 'true' arcade in a long time, and not sure where to find one. THAT is what this episode is about. if you're still an arcade enthusiast, this show isn't trying to tell you don't exist, it's trying to tell you why there aren't a hell of a lot more of you out there.
i'm not a fact checker, so there may be some errors in the details, or omissions in the story - BUT for a show at this length i feel like i'm getting a pretty good education.
Great production, Jeremiah. Fun show to watch. Good beginning to the series - I look forward to digging deeper in future eps! I stopped playing video games with Frogger (fell in the river too many times) so I have a lot of catching up to do!
It's factually inaccurate and presents incorrect statements as facts to an uninformed audience.
The reason it has over 99% approval is because very few people are aware of how misinformed most of the video is.
Well produced, but poorly researched and unsubstantiated opinion really does a disservice toward presenting a history of videogaming.
While I think the video took a nosedive when the members tried to pretend they had informed opinions of arcade games, the whole "gamers grew up" comment is just not right. There was more maturity in my arcade in the late 80's (filled w/ junior high kids) than any Half Strike server could ever hope to have.
One other thing: if being a "grown up" gamer these days means I have to play games that "do not have goals and do not require skill, only that you devote a tremendous amount of time to mindlessly build stats and keep on top of other players", then I'll gladly keep wearing that "poopy diaper".
For being "crybabies" and "cult members", they sure do make a lot of good points. I think the following quotes sums the whole problem with this video up perfectly: "It's not that arcades were dissed and a handful a fanboys are whining about it, an entire style of gameplay was marginalized and dismissed as shallow because you refuse to consider it's form of depth." and "I don't think the "negative feedback" is from people trying to say the arcade is alive or is better than home gaming. It's just that there's SO MANY WRONG THINGS on this video. I won't disagree, Arcades aren't 5% as popular as they used to be, but that's the *only* thing this video got right." Doesn't sound like whining to me. In fsct, that sounds pretty rational and well thought out, as opposed to "...arcades are just the video game industry's poopy diaper. And we're all grown up now and using the big boy potty at home." and "Alright! Looks like the crybaby arcade fanboys and neo geo cult memebers are back!" Seriously.
Followup to shatterhand's post: Not only that but they use the Genesis port's release dates and not the original arcade release dates. 1989 Space Harrier was actually Space Harrier II (the arcade original was release in 1985), Outrun was actually release in the arcades in 1986 (once again the video uses the Genesis release date of 1991 but they didn't say the Outrun footage was from the Genesis version), and After Burner II came out in the arcades at 1987 (but once again the video uses the Genesis port release date).
It's also funny by looking at the Genesis segment of the video that they only show the Arcade/Genesis difference of Altered Beast and Strider. If they showed the Arcade/Genesis difference of the sprite scaling arcade games from Sega (After Burner, Outrun, and Space Harrier), you can see that the Genesis ports weren't 100% Arcade perfect according to the video. The Genesis hardware didn't support sprite scaling at all so those three games the scaling is choppy.
And about the Neo-Geo segment, I was laughing because of the quote "the games were very boring." If they were boring why did people are still willing to spend $200 for one game? Because gameplay rules over graphics.
The Neo-Geo was marketed to be the no 1 console. It was marketed to be the no 1 arcade system, and it succeded on that. Its home-console cousin was indeed marketed to be niche, SNK knew that, and the Neo-Geo was extremly sucessful on what it was supposed to do.
Saying the games were "boring" was just a big mistake.
And it's so clear the people on this episode have no idea of what they are talking about. How many of them are actually old enough to have played through the "Golden era"?
Beat'em ups aren't boring when played at home, you don't have to "credit feed". Finishing them without using continues is a challenge, but I'd believe someone who sees "Wow" as an "artistic craft" can't even begin to understand what this means. Surely, finishing a game using a lot of continues it's easy, but that's NOT how those games were designed to be played....
I don't think the "negative feedback" is from people trying to say the arcade is alive or is better than home gaming. It's just that there's SO MANY WRONG THINGS on this video. I won't disagree, Arcades aren't 5% as popular as they used to be, but that's the *only* thing this video got right. The Genesis killed the arcade? Oh come on, please. It's ridiculous when the video shows Space Harrier, After Burner, Altered Beast, because they don't look as good as their arcade originals.
A lot of people here are showing their lack of knowledge (including the director of the video) by misrepresenting the issue. It's not that arcades were dissed and a handful a fanboys are whining about it, an entire style of gameplay was marginalized and dismissed as shallow because you refuse to consider it's form of depth. Considering most anything is accepted as depth and replay value by mainstream gaming media (i.e. being able to play through the game in a jester's cap) I can't see how this is being ignored, if not intentionally.
For instance with Final Fight, like any arcade-style game, success comes not only from your ability to read the mechanisms of gameplay, but being able to put that knowledge into practice through reflexes. This can be quite an undertaking for the player since you're required to have a certain amount of skill in order to succeed (compared to MMO's which require time and little else.) This learning and application process is known as depth. Of course, none of this will be apparent to someone who writes a game off as a "credit-muncher" or "button-masher". They're forever doomed to insert credit after credit, watch the ending, and assume they've accomplished something, later pissing on the game because it pissed on their abilities. The problem with this, is that they're setting artificial goals, like someone playing chess and thinking he won because he made a neat looking pattern on the board.
The games described as "complex and artistic" do not have goals and do not require skill, only that you devote a tremendous amount of time to mindlessly build stats and keep on top of other players. Moreover, being given a larger template or sandbox does not change the depth of actual gameplay. Most of these updates have less to do with artistry than milking profit as much as possible before the eventual necessity of making another game sets in. It also seemed odd that there would be so much praise for WoW from such frugal-minded people. A high-end computer, $50 a month for broadband connection, 50$ for the game itself and a $15-20 subscription fee each month, not to mention additions to the utility bill if you want to get detailed. Seems that this all adds up to more than a couple of quarters.
http://insomnia.ac/commentary/arcade_culture/
A very nice if strongly worded article that'll at least give you an idea where some of us 12 fanboys are coming from.
http://youtube.com/ninjasrok
Fitting that I end with a link to videos of someone who beats simplistic quarter eating button mashers in one credit. Similar feats of skill can be found on super-play.co.uk if you're interested in seeing more.
Splatterfan: Oh yeah, dude, you called it. It feels grrrrreat to be right. I almost can't even tell you how good it feels. Just awesome! Man, you should totally try it sometime. Oh wait, but I guess you'd have to be right about someting first. Hey, I'm on my computer because I'm still at work and it's 5am in NYC. And work's fun, but this is fun, too! A better question is what are you doing up? Actually, the best question is why are you here at all? I came because I like this show a lot, and I stayed to mingle with the crazies. But, what kind of people rag on show and then hang out here all day and night? Man, that is just bizarre. I knew this fat girl once who didn't smoke or drink, but she'd always come with us to bars and then complain all night about the cigarette smoke and boozers. I don't remember exactly what happened, but one night at some point one of us finally turned to her and just said, "what the hell are you doing here?! You don't like it! Nobody wants you here! You're just f-ing it up for th rest of us! Just go home!" And then home she went. So, if an ugly, fat chick I knew in college can do it, so can you, splatterboy. Actually, splatterdude, I don't want to fight with you because you're not really who I was making fun of before. I was mainly making fun of the dorky arcade fanboys and coin-op shills who insist that coin-op video games are still kicking when everyone but Helen Keller can plainly see they're not. And the only reason that Helen Keller can't see it is because she's dead. Were she still alive, even she would see that arcades are just the video game industry's poopy diaper. And we're all grown up now and using the big boy potty at home. But, man, it is kinda weird that you're hanging in here just arguing with people. I mean, it's a light, fun internet show that a bunch of (I'm guessing) college dudes make. This isn't going to be transcribed and taught in public schools or worked into the president's next state of the union address. And it's actually pretty much right on, and so are the other episodes. I think it might be time to let it go.
Booyakasha: if you can prove that everything said in this video are 100% true facts and not just opinions, then I will concede defeat. eugeneleyritz: if you have so much work to do for Microsoft and SOE, what in the world are you doing here? To prove to a bunch of strangers that you're right and we're wrong? Well, I hope it feels so good to be right. There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?
Oh man, it's hilarious to watch all (a) people who work in coin op and (2) the total nerd arcade fanboys get so twisted up on this message board. If coin-op was doing as well as it was, would you really have time to come on this site and whine? And for the arcade fanboys, man, what proof do you guys need? Geez, it's like reading dennis kucinich suppoters online. "yeah, america's with us! we're gonna win the white house in 2008! We'll, dominate every message board! There's millions of us out there!" And then election day comes, and everybody votes, and he get's 1% . And then you realize it was always just 30 losers online that found each other. That's all it ever was. America didn't agree with you. No one agreed with you. It was always just you and your small circle of nerdy friends working each other up online in fantasy land. Step away from the computer. Look outide your window. Note the lack of arcades around you. Arcade domination is done. Get. Over. It. But the best part is watching everyone swinging at non-existent ghosts. The show NEVER said it was about the coin-op amusement industry, but only about video games. The show is not global in the least, but talks the entire time only about american culture, grosses, and purchasing. And it's totally 100% right on. Actually, I'd love to see a Japanese verison of this show, and get that side, too. Hey "editor", maybe you can make one since you have sooooo much more tv knowledge than everyone else here apparently. Oh whoops. You're not making shows. Oh, ok. Well then, I suppose people who actually do that for living will have to do it for you. Oh, speaking of credentials. Has anyone here ever actually worked on video games for a living? Anyone at all? Hey, wait a minute, I have. Anyone else? No? Just me here? Oh ok, well then I'm gonna go back to doing work for Microsoft and SOE now on games that will sell millions here in the US, while you precious little band of geniuses continue to insists that arcades are still kicking 100%. And to the neo geo fanboys. Yeah, I owned a neo geo. It was freakin sweet! I was also the only person within a 200 mile radius that had one. Maybe if the internet was around back then, I could've found others. And then we could sit aorund all day online convincing ourselves that everyone else also owed a neo geo, like you guys have done.
splatterfan1988: Right, history... but from who's perspective? Is it United States history from the Japanese perspective? Or is the American perspective (the vanilla flavored version in textbooks..)? Not to throw a non-sequitar, but as a lover of history, I take each historical perspective with a grain of salt. Especially when decided within comment boxes at strange websites.
Splatter: oh, sure there was a demand. But those were never top sellers or killer appz on any 16 or 32 bit consoles. Just more of a smaller, niche demand. And the "all aracde games suck" comment isn't what you seem to think it is. He's referring specifically to "final fight" style games when you try to take them home. Many of those "final fight" style games (punisher was my favorite) simply threw swarms of enemies at you, and they were only fun because you came into the arcades with a limited amount of quaters and so it was fun to see how long you could last with the money you brought in. At home, with endless continues for free, a lot of the fun is suddenly gone and the game's not really as fun anymore. That's his opinion anyway, I thought it was interesting so I kept it in the show.
To Jeremiah Black: I can't argue with the facts about the Neo that you stated; but if the games were "just very boring and not the kind of games people wanted", as the presenter claimed, then why were most of them ported to the majority of the 16 and 32 bit systems? There had to have been some kind of demand for them, don't you think? Amd there's still that insulting "all arcade games suck" comment to address. To Booyakasha: I can only speak for myself, and I do not have an egenda regarding the continued health of arcades. I'm more interested in seeing that facts are reported in a history video, not opinions.
MESSAGE FROM JEREMIAH BLACK, DIRECTOR OF PLAY VALUE: Splatterfan, thanks for chiming in. I didn't address it because I've been working for the last 12 hours, and I'm dead tired. Remember, you're just chatting with me. I'm chatting with half a dozen people, emailing back and forth, directing new episodes of Play Value, and new episodes of some entirely different shows that I do. But, I just had some coffee, and now I would like to address the NEO GEO issue. I'll come back and discuss the sports game comment later because I'm about to all alseep on my keyboard. Before i begin, does everyone here know that in 11 days SNK is scheduled to cease doing repairs on the neo geo and neo geo products? So, if your hardware or software is busted, get it fixed NOW, before they stop taking orders and close up shop on the 31st!. Ok, now back to the topic. Neo Geo has many fans, so I understand why some might be upset. But I stand by the perspecive of the show, namely that neo geo did not change the face of gaming nor give us a glimpse into what the future of gaming was going to be. We can put aside discussion on the prohibitively high price point for both the hardware and the games, and the fact that it lasted 14 years, not 15 (1990-2004). The fact is that Neo Geo was always a niche console, pure and simple. You simply can't compare the install base and overall cultural influnece of the NES or the genesis or the SNES in 1991 to the neo geo. And over the course of that 14 year history, SNK's neo geo failed to become a top 5 console upon its debut, stopped being covered entirely by US game magazines in 1995, stopped manufacturing consoles in 1997, and then SNK went completely bankrupt in 2000. Although beloved by its fans, it wasn't exactly 14 years of high flying glory in the USA. It was 14 years of being the best 2D console ever made, in a culture where the mainstream wanted 3D graphics and more immersive games- in other words 14 years of catering to a dedicated minority. No shame in that whatsoever, but that's is what it was. Most importantly, arcade style gaming became less and less of an atractive idea to most consumers as time went on. Most American kids simply didn't want coin-op style games in their home. Most kid's tastes grew to want long form narrative games. In fact, kids are wanting even longer games these days (like WOW). I'm sorry, and I respect everyone here, but the Neo Geo was a popular niche console that simply wasn't an influnce on the future. It stayed around in America much in the same way that vinyl records have, because some people love them and it was the BEST ever for what it was. But the future of music distribution is mp3s. Now we can debate if that's good or bad, but that's what's happening. Similar to a game such as Dragon's lair, the neo geo blew people's minds, but it simply didn't predict the future of gaming or portend where the industry was headed. The industry was headed to where the customers were headed. And they were headiing to 40 hour, FMV filled, long form, 3D games. Ask any 100 people on the street about nintendo or the neo geo, and see where most people spent their money and childhood. And since the neo geo was the best 2D console ever made, we can bemoan this, but it's true. These are, as spaltterfan requested, the bare facts. Home Neo geo was only ever a fraction as popular as the all various consoles that dominated its life span. So, while I deeply apologize if I offened anyone, I stand by the position of the show that the neo geo failed to become an influential console, not because of the price, but because the future of gaming was going into deepr, more immersive, 3D, long form gaming than short form, aracde, coin-op style gaming. Thank you, everyone for your time and patience. And thank you for cleaning up the language on the board. I will return when I have time to address the "sports gaming" comment. Not sure when that will be, but I will try to get to it soon. After that, I'll be happy to take some questions about the show, but I can no longer return to the boards to forever continue this discussion. As you can see on the site, this show is not a one time special, but a weekly episodic series, so I must concentrate on other topics and leave the board or there will be no more episode to fume over. :) Thanks again, everyone. And keep gaming. (And rememeber to get your neo geo or pocket neo geo fixed in the next 11 days.)
Dear Editor, doodah408, Splatterfan, and Cinnamon: Surely your business is not so fragile as to require you to gangbang an insignificant comment thread like this?
Word of the wise: don't hide your point in 1200 word entries. I tried to read them, but I simply don't care... I watched the video, and found the story quite interesting, and engaging. If you have issues, be direct, and specific. Example "he said 2+2=5... in fact it 4". As it stands now, this just seems like a bunch of people with an egenda relating to the continued health to arcades to me.
I remember arcades too... I don't go to them anymore, though. They all closed down ages ago.
There are so many factual inaccuracies in this video it is mind-boggling. One of the worst things I've ever seen. Tip: do some actual research before you make a video like this.
to Mr. Black:
There are a quite a few more than a dozen irritated by the quality of this piece.
To Jeremiah Black: Thanks for your response, but you addressed nothing that I brought up at all. Are you going to have your presenters saying stuff in the "Return of the Arcade" video like this: "Remember all that stuff I said about the Neo Geo before? Well, I was just yanking your chain. People loved to play the games the Neo had, that's why it lasted for 15 years." Or maybe "So I said it was impossible to play sports games in the arcade. I was only kidding! I've played NFL Blitz and NBA Jam loads of times!" The fact remains that the opinions stated by your presenters are being passed off as facts, which they clearly aren't, and why you're avoiding this particular issue I don't know. Attempting to use the fact that each program is only eight minutes long as an excuse for presenting opinions as facts I don't get either. Simply put: when producing anything (a paper, a book, a video) about the history of anything, the facts should be told and the opinions left to message boards, not the other way around.
MESSAGE FROM JEREMIAH BLACK, DIRECTOR OF PLAY VALUE: Hey guys. Thanks for the responses, Splatterfan glad to have you back. Well, it seems like everyone is nice and calm now. I wasn't planning on returning to the forums for a couple days (deadlines on other stuff are looming) but I wanted a few things made public because what was being implied by some was incorrect. So, just to clarify. (A) There was no "rush" to make a follow up episode in response to these posts. The follow up episode was written (and has already been partially shot) loooong before this. In fact, the episode(s) is really about 18 months old, as it was originally a pilot for a weekly 1/2 hour television show I was directing 1 1/2 years ago. Except in that whole 1/2 hour we covered most of what you and splatterfan and others mention so passionately. Now that it's been re-packaged to 8 minutes, I split it up into two halves- one stating arcades are dead, and the other saying they're coming back and have always been around in Japan, and (to a certain extent) here. Neither episode is as detailed as I'd like them to be. But oh well. If everyone out there would like to mail me a check for $10,000, then I'd be willing to make a 2 hour documentary on the whole subject that would make everyone happy. We could even get Peter Jacobsen to come in and talk about golden tee! :) Nevertheless, responses to the show are over 99% positive and less than 1% negative, showing me that my decision to put 1/2 as episode 1 and the other as episode 12, wasn't that bad. But, I suppose I'd put it at episode 2 if I could go back in time, to avoid so much fighting and negativity between the viewers of differing perspectives. Like I said in an earlier post, if anyone still really cares, I can try to have it bumped to the #9 slot at this point, because, aside from a two part series on failed consoles, none of the upcoming episodes are really tied to each other (although there is an order I'd prefer them in for clarity). So, again, while I respect and value the education, opinions, perspective, and dedication of the posters here, I will not be writing the season to accomodate a vocal minority. The show has been watched in this last week alone tens of thousands of times, and negative feedback has been largely centered around about a dozen people. I'm not trying to belittle anyone's perspective in the least, because it's quite a very infomed dozen people, but I can't do my job this way- especially when most of the dissenting perspective has already been covered and is coming out a future episode already. I'm very sorry, and I mean no offense by that in the least, but if you care to watch the other episodes of the show and read the other forums, you'll see me in there too, telling people that future episodes are coming and to please be patient. And when it comes out, everyone may like the episode or everyone may not, some will feel it didn't go too far, some will feel it went too far. But, that's just gonna be the show. Everyone out there who works in a creative field knows that nothing will please everyone and certainly not at 8 minutes. So, I hope you guys really like it, but if you don't, then I hope you understand that with 99% positive feedback, I'm gonna have to just move on. at some point. (B) the video wasn't "dropped" or "backed away from" by other sites hosting it, as "editor" claimed or might like to believe. It's gone because it was being illegally hosted. I personally didn't mind it, but, as the director, I don't own or distribute this program and so I have no sway over such matters. Anyone out there with any television experience will understand this. (c) speaking of television experience, I wouldn't put too much stock into reading into a press release for a look at what the show is "really" up to. The distributor and parent company of a show such as this does their job, and I do mine. This was the same way when I making shows for direct tv and cablevision. Programming directors would cut entire commericals for programming I produced, and we'd never even met each other! If you want the straight dope about content, please ask me: the director of the show. The people that own and sell the show have a whole different set of expertise, skills, and job duties. Please respect the distinction. I think you'll find that there are very few directors who are willing to come online (on top of the 60 hours a week I already work and raising my 3 year old son) to chat with the gaming commuity and do their best to address concerns that arise from 1% of a show's audience. But I like the gaming community, so I do this wiithout being asked. All I ask in return is that everyone please try to get along.
Interesting observations Splatterfan1988.
I have a little more background on this whole sorry project.
I have just read the 08/09/07 press announcement for the Play Value series (ON Networks Introduces Play Value: A Virtual Primer on the History & Relevance of Video Games), and it runs the original story before Mr. Blacks reversal. One piece of information garnered is the name of the cast and their credits:
"...Indeed, the program’s cast list reads like a who’s who of the gaming business: Libe Goad, AOL Games Programming Director; T.J. Allard, Video Game Designer; Dan Ackerman, CNET Editor; Jeff Rubin, Collegehumor.com Managing Editor, Josh Shabtai, New Media Specialist at Ketchum PR and Shandi Sullivan, America’s Next Top Model finalist and popular New York City DJ."
Well if thats a 'who's who' color me stupid and I think the word 'primer' will come back to haunt all involved. Also the press release did not mention 'Return of the Arcades' episode, favoring to build-up the death of arcade angle. This is very interesting and begs more questions. We really need to talk Mr. Black.
To Jeremiah Black: I read your last posts with great interest. However, not once did you say exactly how you're going to address the comments made by the presenters that were 100% wrong. You talk about consoles dominating gaming right now as if whether or not that's true is the issue at hand here. It's not. It's that you're presenting opinions as facts, which is wrong. Your presenters made incorrect statements and assumptions about many arcade stanbys (the Neo Geo and arcade sports titles especially) and flat-out insulting blanket statements about all arcade titles, the worst of which I quoted directly in my initial post. That you actually allowed a presenter to state explicitly that all arcade titles suck and then left that in the video still boggles my mind. And having another presenter saying that arcades died so we could have games like Oblivion and WoW? What were you thinking? editor covered this in his last couple of posts, and I agree with him completely. Look at it this way: I'm both an arcade enthusiast and a console enthusiast, but I can't stand MMORPGs and FPS games. Now if I were to make and release a video claiming that both genres suck and all MMORPG and FPS games are worthless - my opinion - and presented it as a fact, wouldn't that raise some people's ire? It's obviously just my opinion. How would I be able to fix that? My error would be compounded if I ended up making inaccurate statements about both genres during the course of the video and presenting them as facts as well. My credibility would be shot to hell at that point. If you're going to present opinions, then say so at the beginning of the video! If not, your less-informed viewers are going to take these opinions as facts, and I was under the impression that you were trying to keep your viewers informed of the facts, not someone's opinion. So please tell us just how you plan to address all of these incorrect "facts" that were presented in this video - and a "Return of the Arcade" video isn't going to cut it, so please don't fall back on that.
Mr. Black,
I am coming to these posts in reverse as I am in the middle of a feature and coming back to the forum when I suffer a mental block.
My email is- "editor (at) thestingerreport (dot) com"
-Please lets talk.
All the best,
Kevin Williams
KWP (Owners of The Stinger Report)
Dear Eugeneleyritz,
I agree lets keep this on even terms.
I agree that video amusement is a niche – but a niche of the much large AMUSEMENT industry. I actually work in the Out-of-Home interactive entertainment company that includes amusement, but also interactive attractions (Star Tours 2.0, etc), hospitality (Golden Tee, etc) and Serious Gaming.
The Play Value research team had targeted amusement and said it was dead. Now we hear the Director/Producer meant - not dead, but returning - not Worldwide, but in America, - and now reports that in 9 episodes time there will be a video that contradicts all of what his presenters said at the end of this video?
Though ON Networks must be loving this publicity, I bet they are smarting from the climb down (and the removal of the video off most web sites bar theirs) – seems my first observation below was proven correct!
All the best,
Kevin Williams
KWP (Owners of The Stinger Report)
Dear Jeremiah Black, Director/Producer of Play Value,
Thank you for coming to the forum to address the growing criticism of the ‘Death of Arcades’. Though I greatly appreciate the explanation I have to say that the creation of the first in the episode of videos has laid you bare for a lot of complaint beyond just what toy left out!
I understand the explanation of the limited time available, but some of the comments were fatuous and wrong no matter what you say you will do in the coming ‘Return of Arcades’ – how are you going to redress incorrect statements?
Just some basic corrections to your comments – you have to be very careful how you calculate our industries ‘glory days’, if you mean 1984-5 then we are at sales and business currently of 15% reduction, if you mean 1990-1 we are 20% (please be careful of using statistical date – The Stinger Report depends on actual financial postings of the main factories to calculate so avoiding fatuous reporting [a good example is how most consumer media have forgotten mention that Sega and Namco sales in consumer is down, but amusement and operation is up!])
I am surprised that you cut all the stuff about Golden Tee and the bounce back of American gaming from first video but then managed to keep in some really stupid stuff like “…arcade games are only in some venues as nostalgic pieces?!” I have to say Mr. Black, I find it hard that this last episode really existed. Having worked on TV before I know that in the end the director of the production is the responsibility for shaping, while the Producer sets the tone what is produced and you must have seen you had compiled an attack rather than an argument for our future industry? (having these two rolls in one person may explain the collision in direction). I can see why there is a rush to promise an alternative video, but the damage in your researcher’s credibility has been done.
Finally, I have to say that I feel that the coming Return of Arcade piece will have to work VERY hard to address the serious concern in the credibility of Play Value – I really hope you have got some industry input into the work. I also wonder how much of this next video is really in the can – you mention a number of times ‘...will be...’ includes in the Return video. I have to wonder if our pressure over your first episode is forcing you to create a back-tracking piece (and supplying free research in the bargain!) Hearing the number of caveats used regarding the first efforts fuels this thought – I just hope you get some authoritarian representation and look at possibly changing some of your presenters to address the appalling situation your team has got Play Value and ON Networks into (also if you use our information please attribute it)!
Oh and in retrospect… yes you should have!
Let’s be frank I work in the industry and will not have the time to wait 12 or even 9 episodes to see you address those mistake. What will happen is that people will see this as a divisive way to force people to endure your presenters – and I guess that when we see the 12 episode and find glaring errors we will be told, “…oh its too late to address those comments – we promise to address them when we do the next 12!” though the question would be if you get to do another series!
Please email me directly if you want to discuss this further, I would love to get a better idea how this situation was created as our e-news service ‘The Stinger Report’ is considering following this debacle in a feature.
All the best,
Kevin Williams
KWP (Owners of the Stinger Report)
Doodah: Just admit you made a mistake. (1)You said 6 billion, it turned out to be 2.2 billion. and I'll concede I got the difference wrong between 1.1 and 2.2 billion. You didn't even try to read it, and only went back and read it now because you got called out. OK. So, let's see all the facts now that they're out. 20 billion in 1980. 2.2 billion now. As of this morming, the Consumer price index inflation calculation was running at 267% from 1980 to 2006 which means that aracades are grossing roughly 4.11% of what they did in 1980 in comparitive dollars. What did I say in my last post? 3%. Ok, i was wrong. It's actually 4.11%. But, I think the point's proven. And as for the term "muli-billion". Well, the current grosses are 2.2 billion now, but in 1980, that 2.2 billion would''ve been only 824 million- not even 1 billion- again just over 4% of arcade's previous grosses. Did you read the rest of the report I cited? Nothing but decline, year after year. Look, I like arcades, too! But we're all gonna have to face the facts that it's really just a relatively niche market now that's not even 1/20 of what it used to be in the US and that consoles dominate. (2) again, you complain about childish taunts, but then go on to hurl insults in the rest of your post. Chill, dude. I totally respect that Kevin Williams has joined us. But you have to calm down and admit that arcades just ain't what the used to be first. Then maybe we can discuss what they are in reality. 4.11% apparaently. (3) I think it's pretty obvious this show's about video games, not coin-op in general. C'mon, amigo, you're just cluthcing at straws with that one. I also think it's also pretty obvious that this episode is about the american market, since EVERY number and figure they quote in the show (and the other episodes) are for the US market. Look, I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's pretty onvious you love arcades, but you're simply a minority now. Like the girl in the show said at the end, "it's sad. But it happened."
ANOTHER MESSAGE FROM JEREMIAH BLACK, DIRECTOR OF PLAY VALUE. To doodah: If you cannot stop insulting people here and make your points nicely like "Editor" does, I will personally call the administrators and have you removed. As the director, I don't like to get involved with the show's distributor, but you need to tone the hatred down, buddy. Let's all play nice. And please don't publicly deny you posted a link to a very nasty site filled with people posting personal information on the cast for the purposes of sexist harrassment. I saw it, and so did the administrators, and we all talked about it . You're still here because we're waiting for everyone to calm down and start getting along on here as adults. But please don't lie about it. An apology would be better. To "editor": check out my previous comments. If you want, post your email and we can speak directly. The episode you want is already coming, but we can still discuss it if you like. As for splatterfan1988 and Eugeneleyritz and everyone else, I think everyone's made their respective points already. So, let's just let the back and forth die for a bit, please.
MESSAGE FROM THE DIRECTOR OF PLAY VALUE: Hello everyone here! My name is jeremiah Black. I am the Producer and Director of Play Value. You may have seen me here before, as I pop on the boards every now and again to say hi and answer questions from everyone posting. And now that I've popped back in, I see a lot of angry people! Some intelligent posts like the last one, and some nasty ones. Before I clear up a few things about this particular episode, I'd like to tell all the people who were frustrated with this episode that your concerns have already been addressed in an upcoming episode of the show. This series is designed in 12 episode "seasons". And they are all filmed up front, and then released (like most tv) weekly, long after they've already been completed. The first episode of the the inital run of 12 was to be "the death of the arcade" and was to feature how arcades are currently running at only about 5% of their glory days, and how the new generation of americans wanted story not score. The last episode of the 12 was to be called "Return of the aracde!" and was to feature the success of the arcades in Japan, and the resurgence (popularized even on colsoles by the Wii) of smaller form games that focus of the art of game design and less on the current "story", FMV ,40 hour narrative games that currently dominate the younger generation in the US. With every episode there's always a certain amount of, "why didn't you mention ______? Are you crazy?" And the answer is typically the same. We only have 8 minutes to deal with. So, as such, we are limited to presenting only one perspective or "take" on the particular subject, and muct save alternate perspectives for future episodes. As I said, this episode was to focus on why arcades currently hold around 5% of the market share they used to in America, and to present the popular opinions and tastes that led to this state. Not only are arcades not as popular, but arcade style gaming is largely unpopular with the new generation here in the US. But that's changing as 40 hour FMV narrative games grow more and more boring and repetitive and people rediscover the thrill of short form gameplay. Hence the future episode "Return of the arcade!", which will also cover the fact that (like home video games) the arcade never really died in Japan, and just like the Japanese brought home video games back to like in 1986 after the market crashed here in the US, the Japanese are bringing arcades and arcade style gaming back to America and validating all the arcade loving diehards who are still playing. Hits like Dance dance revolution, Guitar hero, and even the currnt trend of classic arcade bars will also be covered as well as games like Golden tee. Actually, most of this was actually in the closing of the 1st episode but was cut due to time constaints, and it will be repurposed for the future episode. So, let me close with two things. (1) please keep it nice and friendly on these boards. Please. I can't stress that enough. We all love games here, so we should really be making friends with each other. Not arguing and being nasty. (2) Like I 've said on the boards here in the past: be patient! It's a weekly 8 minute show. Everyone's concerns WILL almost ALWAYS be addressed in future episodes. The limited scope of each program is a by-product of the time constraints, and there will be many, many episodes coming out that will cover all the things we know and love. Oddly enough, I was just discussing this with another producer friend of mine just last week. And he said, "Man, there's just so many factors outside of your control that determine what eventually makes it into a piece and what doesn't. But, it's funny how if something doesn't make it in the show, people just assume you don't know it." I laughed at the time, but it seems less funny now. :) Trust me, fellow gamers, there's nothing that's been posted here or elsewhere that we're all not perfectly aware of at Play Value. It's all coming out in the future. I know the upset people online are aracde enthusiats, and so feel a certain amount of passion for the issues. That's great, but the fact is that consoles do dominate rght now, and so you'll have to wait a little bit (episode 12) to be vindicated. Perhaps in retrospect, I should've made "The return of the aracde!" the very next episode (episode 2), to immediatly go with this episode. But, at the time, I thought it would be cool to close the season with it (episode 12), so I could get to consoles faster (which is all 95% of the viewers care about). Well, if in two weeks, anyone here still cares, I can try to get the "return of the arcade!" episode moved up to the episode 9 slot, but that's the best that can be done at this point. Sorry about that; these things are planned out pretty far ahead. I'll be checking in tonight briefly, so if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. Thanks guys, and keep gaming- Jeremiah Black, Director/Producer of Play Value.
I would have thought so too doodah408 but I have been told that the research was done by someone else "with arcade knowledge"!!? Sounds like buck passing to me but I just want ON Networks to let me know if they are standing by the Play Value team or if they are going to pull the video and distance themselves from a flawed piece of work as some site have?
eugeneleyritz: If you can't be a man and stand up to the statement you made previously (which I quoted) and admit YOU WERE WRONG, then so be it. Facts speak for themselves, and so do your childish arguments and taunts for all to see. Since you have a problem understanding that arcade video games are part of the larger coin-op industry, allow me to address your silly argument in simpler terms which you can understand. On page 52 (http://www.playmeter.com/images/0107photos/0107SofIPDFs/0107SofI07.pdf) Dedicated Video Games grossed $1.1B, Video Game Kits grossed $458M, and Deluxe Video Game Simulations grossed $676M. Even with your apparent lack of math skills, this totals 2.2 Billion. 2.2B = Multi-Billion dollar industry = still alive, even when distilling the coin-op industry down to just video games! Now, if the title of this video had been "The decline of arcade video games in America", then it would have at least been accurate. Over-stating the OBVIOUS about how consoles came into being, in a self pretentious manner, by indie american hipsters who aren't even over the age of 25, is little more than I can handle, and I'm obviously not alone in this thinking (thank you Kevin Williams for showing a little authority here!) So excuse me for stating the facts, as well as my opinion about this piece. As for all your other links/myspace/whatever made-up taunts, do us all a favor and keep the childish drama to yourself please.
OMG is this going to epic now that Kevin Williams is on the scene. BTW Kevin: the names and qualifications of the presenters is shown at the beginning of this video, and I think you will get a good laugh out of it.
For the record could we have the names and qualifications of the research and presenters at Play Value?
(Having not received a reply to our email we have posed on the forum)
Dear ON Networks,
I would imagine that you have received a mountain of email regarding your latest video. As a member of the international amusement industry (and the Out-of-Home interactive entertainment sector), as well as a prolific writer on the amusement scene, I had to comment on your flawed creation - Play Value “The Death of Arcades”
I will avoid a litany of item by item criticism that I am sure has already been undertaken by a number of web based reviewers, but will just focus on the critically ill judged product and research values of this production. If this is the quality of other projects supplied by the Play Value crew, then you have a serious problem on your hands.
The amusement industry is calculated to have generated roughly $6.3billion last year globally, and has seen incredible business over the last few years – granted a depression hit in 1997 – the industry has grown from that point and has taken on a status where Electronic Arts, UbiSoft, Activision, Valve and Nintendo have worked on projects recently to release in amusement.
The market has such players as Sega (recently announcing financial figures showing a growth on amusement business surpassing console business), Namco (recently merged with Bandai, and also reporting increased revenue in AM business), and Taito (having also merged recently – with Square, and again increased amusement business, oh and launched a arcade version of Half Life 2). Another of the Japanese leading manufacturers Konami just released an arcade version of their million selling Silent Hill consumer title, to support the super success of their BEMANI genre of titles.
Before your ‘experts’ claim this is just a Japanese phenomenon we need to look at companies such as Global VR that has licensing agreements with Electronic Arts and UbiSoft to release amusement versions of their games. Or we can look at legendary arcade creator Eugene Jarvis and his successful new company Raw Thrills and their movie license driver success ‘The Fast and the Furious’. We can also look at other amusement releases on the international scene that sees arcades played in nearly every movie theatre and bowling complex, and the birth of a million dollar Family Entertainment Centre market. The success also has moved to the bars, with the Golden Tee and Big Buck Hunter sports bar tournament gaming scene that surpasses current Xbox LIVE Arcade prize levels. All sadly overlooked by your teams’ research.
The importance of arcade with the players was also tragically and incompetently missed by your ‘experts’ – total ignorance of the massively important current contribution that ‘BEMANI’ via ‘BeatMania’ and ‘Dance Dance Revolution’ travelling from arcade to home. It is socially irresponsible to miss this that it makes me wonder if your gathered brains trust of researchers were not really up to the job, or just out of their depth to cover this subject (or worse).
Glib comments about inability to play Sports Games in Aacade?!?!, or the totally wrong observation on what the Neo Geo failings were capped by the final statement that the only arcade machines in operation were retro museum pieces left for nostalgic purposes only. The money that Family Entertainment centre operators such as Chuck E.Cheese, Dave & Busters and Palace Entertainment have seen in recent years puts a lie to your ‘experts’ commentary, let alone the majority of the premise that they built their argument on.
I think that your executive board should consider the ramifications of the Play Value piece. Though it will soon be forgotten, it would be a great opportunity to set the record straight about the health of the amusement sector. As players throw record breaking amounts into cashboxes for the latest ‘Virtua Fighter 5’, ‘Tekken 6’ and ‘Initial D 4’ it is important to actually report the facts of a market in transition rather than create a hotchpotch of vagaries, falsehood and pure incorrect statements. I for one who am proud of our industry would love to help.
You will notice that I have cc’ed this email to the leading trade publications in America and Europe linked to the amusement sector. I have also supplied the head of the American Amusement Machine Association a copy of this mail – and I am proposing to pass on this email to the industry trade e-Newsletter The Stinger Report towards writing a feature on this ‘interesting’ commentary.
Just before your ‘experts’ attempt to deride my credential to criticize their work – I am not only a guest feature writer for the trade publications ‘RePlay’, ‘Vending Times’, ‘Tourist Attraction and Parks’, and ‘EuroSlot’ along with arcade feature contributor to the web site SPOnG.com and founder of the amusement e-news service The Stinger Report. I have been in amusement since 1985 and am an ex-Imagineer for Walt Disney, with other extensive jobs in development, manufacturer and sales in Public Space gaming; just for the record.
Finally, my experience is that if ‘you don’t know something – ask someone who dose!’ I think it was very short sighted both to call dead an industry that is clearly not, and to use individuals that along with using the word ‘basically’ way too often, showed a limitation of experience or knowledge that will hold the Play Vale series and the ON Network up for derision across the web. Please do not hesitate to contact myself or the trade association if you would like the picture put straight – as amusement is Very Much Alive, and very interesting.
Yours,
Kevin Williams
Director
KWP Limited